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UFWDA Community Forum  |  UFWDA General Discussion  |  General UFWDA Topics  |  Topic: Clarification Requested « previous next »
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Author Topic: Clarification Requested  (Read 15105 times)
Todd Ockert
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2008, 11:42:16 pm »

Steve

I have looked at the Utah web site, and have overlooked your links to UFWDA, BRC, USA-ALL and Tread Lightly.  One suggestion would be to either make that font bigger, or put the logos there.  Would make it easier to see.  This is just my opinion though...

And as posted prior, the donation was given to the United Land Action Fund, as the check only said donation.  Maybe a misprint on the part of your treasurer.  I am working on the final answers to give to the rest of the BOD's on these issues. 
Until they are posted, and I hope to have them done by the weekend, I would ask everyone to take a deep breath, and relax.
Some people are taking this way to personal, and this is starting to get heated again. 
If it does, I will talk to the forum admin and recommend that this thread be locked or remove this thread, and move it over to the delegate area until the answers are posted.
The the questions and answers could be put here for all to view, and in a locked thread!

Personally, I think it should be moved there until the answers are posted there, and everything is ironed out. 
As I see it, some poeple in this thread could care less about the general membership of UFWDA, and the possibility that this thread is driving people away.
We have enough diversity within our groups, and need to show a unified face to the anti-access folks.  I am sure they are watching with facanation on all of this!
So, again my recommendation is that this thread be moved!

Todd
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 11:37:50 am by Todd Ockert » Logged

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Bill Z
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2008, 11:49:01 pm »

Nothing personal my friend. My point clearly was to have Mr. Jackson to stop trying to rip apart UFWDA when one could do that quite easily to any organization if they wanted to start with their surface and keep gnawing at it as he is doing here. Nit picking your way through anyone's policies is bound to turn up bumps and bruises as something’s are learned on trial and error. Others are just the way they are. My point was enough is enough with him and others with these questions that is surely keeping potential new members from joining by seeing the ruckus raised and you as a President should have taken note of. Those questions can be answered in any arena required other than an open platform where promotion to gain new membership and maintain existing members is the focus of a forum. With that said I respect your answer given to my post quite fully.

Thanks and I am off on a new Texas Trail! .....

Bill Z
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 11:52:28 pm by Bill Z » Logged
Todd Ockert
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2008, 01:46:40 pm »

That's my personal and professional evaluation. 

Mr. Jackson
I would be interested in seeing how or what you used to make your personal and professional evalution of UFWDA and our way of doing business?
A inquiring mind wants to know.

I have put forth that spending ~15% of UFWDA's total income on The Voice is a poor use of scarce resources.  $32K is money that could be spent elsewhere on any number of badly needed areas of improvement.  I have suggested that through a combination of increasing the ad to content ratio, reducing production costs, and reducing the number of pages, The Voice could become self-sustaining on a much faster schedule.

On one hand I would want to agree with you, but when the income goes down, your cost percentage goes up.  That is what has happened here.
our income has gone down, and the cost to produce the Voice has remained the same.  But the percentage spent on it has increased. 
If UFWDA can get the total income back up to where it should be, the cost percentage will go back to the 5 % area that we should operate at.

So, how do we get there? 
We get our friends to become members of UFWDA, and showcase what we can do to protect trails and land.  I consistantly do it, and would like for all of our members to do it.  At the Hump & Bump event, i got up on the stage and talked about UFWDA, and all the work we have done. 
How do all of the organizations get more members, so when our legal advocates go to Washington, they can say they represent X number of constiuents from all states in the union.  At the present time, combined, BRC and UFWDA can only say that they represent about 25,000 constiuents.  With the number of people who recreate off-highway in this country, our legal representatives should be able to represent well over 5 million users...

How do we get that feel good feeling for people to just donate to our groups, as the Sierra Club has happen...

We don't do it by airing dirty laundry in public.  I am sure that the Sierra Club has dirty laundry also, but we do not get to see it...

I am off my soap box for now.

Todd
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Chris Hannis
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2008, 03:00:48 pm »

Chris

Your point being what?
Who did ad's for the Voice prior to Marti?
Marti has done a fabulous job increasing ad sales for UFWDA! 
Who else has done that for the association?
Any of the BOD's, other contractors?  No with the exception of Marti!

The Va Wheel-in was organaized and thought of by Marti.  Who else thought of doing something like that for this association?  No one that I can think of!!!

Todd

Todd,
Your point being what?

My point is simply that Wayne's statement is pointless!  He's comparing a 1/2 year of commission paid to a full year contractor's fixed rate paid.

Who did ad's for the Voice prior to Marti?

John Stewart was doing some business sales prior to Marti if I remember correctly, you'll have to check your records to make sure.

Marti has done a fabulous job increasing ad sales for UFWDA! 

I don't doubt that Marti has done her best to increase sales.

Who else has done that for the association?

Many people have tried to do so in a volunteer position and have either failed to meet the requirement or were respectively terminated. 

Any of the BOD's, other contractors?  No with the exception of Marti!

John Stewart, former Newsletter editor, ...

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 03:05:58 pm by Chris Hannis » Logged

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Steve Edmunds
Utah Four Wheel Drive Association
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2008, 05:48:11 pm »

Steve

I have looked at the Utah web site, and have overlooked your links to UFWDA, BRC, USA-ALL and Tread Lightly.  One suggestion would be to either make that font bigger, or put the logos there.  Would make it easier to see.  This is just my opinion though...

If you have your webmaster email your preferred logo, and authorization to use it, we can do that...   send it to - Webmaster@u4wda.org

Realize that we need to get USA-ALL, Tread Lightly and BRC logos too - we don't want to portray any favoritism between these organizations that we support.  Once we have all of this together, then you will see the change.
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Todd Ockert
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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2008, 06:25:32 pm »

Steve

Thanks.  These logos and and banners could also be put in your newsletter.
I will get with Tom, who did the current banner ad's and have him forward them to your webmaster.

Appreciate it.

Todd
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Gary & Kathleen Snyder
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2008, 07:48:35 pm »

Who did ad's for the Voice prior to Marti?

Jim Anderson, Joyce Hillson, Cindy St. Clair, Kathleen Snyder.  These are just a few of past people doing Voice ads.
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Steve Jackson
Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association
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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2008, 09:30:00 pm »

A response is posted above in this very same thread.  It was posted here, to put it in view of everyone.

Can you point this out to me?  My last post notes the items that had not been addressed.

As I was sitting there at the table when you came by the booth, and Wayne or the other BOD's present did not call anyone a disgruntled former employee.

The word disgruntled was not used in that conversation, but similar language was used.  Also, other email and voice communications with Marti and Wayne made similar comments.

Wayne did want to sit down with you and discuss these issues, but not while you were both standing at the booth.  Wayne tried to get you to move off to one of the side tables to talk, but did not wish to take the discussion there.

What side tables?  We stood off to the side to have our discussion.  If the basic questions won't be answered, it doesn't take a very long conversation.

Wayne did ask if you would be willing to submit a proposal on how to increase business memberships/sales and the same thing is posted above.

Carla and Tom asked me to submit a proposal for a new business position.  Some of the questions in this thread were aimed at getting the information to fulfill this request.  This information was never received.  How many times would you expect me to try and work on something for UF when I can't get the information necessary?

In the other thread, I have asked if U4WDA would post the current ad for the "One Tank of Gas Donation'Challenge" that is in the e-News, you you can use the images that Tom has created if you need something smaller.  If you need something smaller, please pm me, and I can provide a link to them.

As I stated in that thread, send me a hi-res 300dpi version for print.
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Steve Jackson
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Steve Jackson
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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2008, 09:57:35 pm »

Since Steve has chosen UFWDA's forums as a platform to dig into finances and to pry into where funding corners are cut and see if there are areas that are mismanaged as he firmly has stated over and again

I just came here to ask questions.  I had no thought of any problems.  Only the further discussion and active dodging of questions made me even consider there might be something to look at.  I've never thought there was anything improper going on.

We already have established that U4WDA has denied its members support by having a public or private forum.

Yeah, we don't have a forum.  We do have an informal forum on RockyMountainExtreme.com which is a Utah based 4x4 forum.

http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44

This is usually done if an organization has something to hide and is mismanaging funding. Let us see if that could be the case here.

What evidence or experience do you have to support this statement?  I've never known the lack of a forum to be such an indicator, but if you've seen that before then I'd be interested to hear about it.

Nope...Nothing about Price Trails being in peril! But wait! Is it true? Let us look

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=730979

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/feedback.3.html

http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=59714

Say it isn't so! You mean that? Yes...I mean that U4WDA did not post on their own website or to their members PAID members that they needed to ban together and save Price Trails.

Our website is out of date on a few areas for sure.  There's not really anything for the people to do right now regarding the Price problem.  Angry emails are hurting our efforts rather than helping at this point.  We're working with the BLM to submit detailed information about the missing trails before we can make the next move and finally ask for increased public support.

Also, the threads you point to were started by U4WDA board members. Smiley

What else you ask is amiss on U4WDA website and their members money if you join?

Note the sad sad note it tells you about Public Land Use and how and what they do with your money and how they protect you.

U4WDA Open Access Fund

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of money to defend motorized access on public lands. U4WDA supports legal groups like Utah Shared Access Alliance, Blue Ribbon Coalition, and others with financial donations to conduct specific legal action. Money donated or allocated for the U4WDA Open Access Fund is reserved for support of legal action in Utah that is intended to protect 4x4 access to public lands. Donate to the U4WDA Open Access Fund now.

What's sad about maintaining a fund for legal action in Utah?  It's served us quite well so far.

Note they do NOT include UFWDA in their content of whom they are now dragging through the mud and have been for an extreme long period of time if you dig through Mr. Jacksons posts. Hmmm...for what again?

Not including UFWDA on that list was an oversight, thanks for pointing it out so it could be corrected!

The entire point of the matter of this post is that if anyone would like to dig and pick apart an association I pretty much believe we can tear U4WDA to shreds on where the members money is going

Bring it on!  There are any number of U4 board members who have the details of our financial transactions and any one of them could defend every penny we spend.

Ask some specific questions (as I have) and I'll be glad to answer them in detail.

So if indeed Mr. Jackson and whom ever else would like to keep engaging in childish engagements of flaming in the forum then banning him from ours is what is needed to take place. This has gone on long enough.

Sorry, I'm not sure how asking pertinent questions about finances is a problem.
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Steve Jackson
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Steve Jackson
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« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2008, 10:20:38 pm »

Mr. Jackson
I would be interested in seeing how or what you used to make your personal and professional evalution of UFWDA and our way of doing business?
A inquiring mind wants to know.

"As we discussed at SEMA, it is both my personal and professional opinion that transparency and accountability is paramount for member/donor supported organizations."

I used my own experience working with large and small non-profits over the last 11 years as I noted in the same thread.

Are you proposing that transparency and accountability are not important for member/donor supported organizations?

On one hand I would want to agree with you, but when the income goes down, your cost percentage goes up.  That is what has happened here.
our income has gone down, and the cost to produce the Voice has remained the same.  But the percentage spent on it has increased. 
If UFWDA can get the total income back up to where it should be, the cost percentage will go back to the 5 % area that we should operate at.

Sure thing, are we getting there?  Income has gone down, but what is making it go up?  How long do we wait for income to go up before considering a cut in this expense area? 

So, how do we get there?

We get our friends to become members of UFWDA, and showcase what we can do to protect trails and land.  I consistantly do it, and would like for all of our members to do it.

That would be a great place to put efforts and some of that $32K being used to produce the voice. I talked to Marti about this the other night and it seems she's already working a plan to address this.

At the Hump & Bump event, i got up on the stage and talked about UFWDA, and all the work we have done.

There ya go!

How do all of the organizations get more members, so when our legal advocates go to Washington, they can say they represent X number of constiuents from all states in the union.

Transparency, accountability, communication and many of the other things I've noted in these various threads for the last several weeks.

With the number of people who recreate off-highway in this country, our legal representatives should be able to represent well over 5 million users...

It should be, but it's not.  That would seem to indicate that alternative directions might be worth pursuing.  I realize that UF is moving to change some things, and that's a good place to start.

How do we get that feel good feeling for people to just donate to our groups, as the Sierra Club has happen...

Public victories, public communications and the other things I've noted previously.

We don't do it by airing dirty laundry in public.  I am sure that the Sierra Club has dirty laundry also, but we do not get to see it...

Huh?

http://www.sierrademocracy.org/

Maybe I'm a little more informed than your friends think.

I am off my soap box for now.

Stay on it, 24x7!  Advocacy breeds advocates!
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Steve Jackson
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Chris Hannis
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« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2008, 05:06:51 pm »

The word disgruntled was not used in that conversation, but similar language was used.  Also, other email and voice communications with Marti and Wayne made similar comments.
Steve, thanks for letting us know how the UFWDA BOD and Contractors are handling this behind closed doors.  It's very Interesting!
 

Is it UFWDA policy to publicly and privately bash former contractors, employees, BOD, volunteers who are not involved in any posts regarding these subjects or others.  (Rhetorical Question  Sad)


Wow!
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Carla Boucher
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« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2008, 06:00:51 pm »

Quote from:  Steve Jackson on November 14, 1008, 09:56:09 pm
The only insight I was offered is that some of my information [regarding poor business practices within UFWDA] might be coming from a disgruntled former contractor.

Quote from: Todd Ockert on November 15, 2008, 08:50:23 am
As I was sitting there at the table when you came by the booth, and Wayne or the other BOD's present did not call anyone a disgruntled former employee.

Quote from Steve Jackson on November 20, 2008, 09:30:00 pm
The word disgruntled was not used in that conversation, but similar language was used.  Also, other email and voice communications with Marti and Wayne made similar comments.


Is it UFWDA policy to publicly and privately bash former contractors, employees, BOD, volunteers who are not involved in any posts regarding these subjects or others.  (Rhetorical Question  Sad)

Chris,

It is NOT UFWDA policy to bash, publically or privately, the work performance of any former contractors, employees, BOD, or volunteers.  UFWDA policy, and action, has been to consistently refrain from any type of comment on job performance, even in the face of criticism from former contractors, employees, BOD, or volunteers.   UFWDA has maintained moral high ground and has NOT publicly nor privately addressed the work performance or personal character of any contractor, employee, BOD, or volunteer, past or present.  We are equally confident that past and present UFWDA contractors, employees, BOD, and volunteers take the same moral high ground and do not "bash" UFWDA, but instead respectfully ask reasonable questions. 

Carla



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Carla Boucher, Attorney
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Chris Hannis
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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2008, 08:42:48 pm »

Carla,

Quote from:  Steve Jackson on November 14, 1008, 09:56:09 pm
The only insight I was offered is that some of my information [regarding poor business practices within UFWDA] might be coming from a disgruntled former contractor.

Quote from: Todd Ockert on November 15, 2008, 08:50:23 am
As I was sitting there at the table when you came by the booth, and Wayne or the other BOD's present did not call anyone a disgruntled former employee.

Quote from Steve Jackson on November 20, 2008, 09:30:00 pm
The word disgruntled was not used in that conversation, but similar language was used.  Also, other email and voice communications with Marti and Wayne made similar comments.


Chris,

It is NOT UFWDA policy to bash, publically or privately, the work performance of any former contractors, employees, BOD, or volunteers.  UFWDA policy, and action, has been to consistently refrain from any type of comment on job performance, even in the face of criticism from former contractors, employees, BOD, or volunteers.   UFWDA has maintained moral high ground and has NOT publicly nor privately addressed the work performance or personal character of any contractor, employee, BOD, or volunteer, past or present.  We are equally confident that past and present UFWDA contractors, employees, BOD, and volunteers take the same moral high ground and do not "bash" UFWDA, but instead respectfully ask reasonable questions. 

Carla

Maybe this policy needs to be refreshed and revisited with the current BOD and Contractors, since it appears that it has happened in emails and voice communications other than at SEMA.  A Public apology to those affected by the remarks, would also be appropriate!

We are equally confident that past and present UFWDA contractors, employees, BOD, and volunteers take the same moral high ground and do not "bash" UFWDA, but instead respectfully ask reasonable questions. 

Reasonable questions have been asked (by myself and "the Steve's") and MOST still go unanswered.  Why?  Do they have to be asked by past and present UFWDA contractors, employees, BOD and volunteers in order to be answered?  I doubt it, but weather asked in a respectful manor (in UFWDA opinion) shouldn't matter; if the questions are reasonable, which I and others believe they are, the questions should be answered. 

"As we discussed at SEMA, it is both my personal and professional opinion that transparency and accountability is paramount for member/donor supported organizations."

As Steve has been saying for weeks, Transparency and accountability are important to us (me) as a member.  This would go a long way to solve the implied tension here in this thread and maybe begin to mend fences.  Be honest and forth coming with answers to questions asked and respect will follow. 

Chris

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Jerry Bliley
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« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2008, 07:33:50 am »

Up until now I had refrained from posting in this discussion because I was just enjoying the entertainment it created.  Now I think I have something to say.


As I understood the changes to the structure and business plan for UFWDA, they were modeling themselves more like a business in order to compete with corporately sponsored entities which were closing our trails and manhandling the government agencies which oversee the areas we care to keep open.  In doing this the changes included running the Organization more like a business and less like a micromanaged volunteer based organization.  The plan was to have all members contribute to the organization directly, instead of through a collective membership in a state or other regional organization.  This would entail a net drop in membership and income over the short term but in the long term it would enable the association to grow stronger over time and be a force to make change for our cause. 

It looks like we are right on track, other than the same economic downturn that has effected everything in the country and the world, and we need to give the plan some time.  I agree with some that the bickering over semantics and who said what is completely useless, other than entertainment for those of us who can stand back and watch as people get in a tiff over nothing. 

As I read the business plan, If UFWDA is to operate more as a business and less like your local social club, then there needs to be less of the businesses day-to-day operations being aired in this forum.  Those employed, whether  compensated or not by the Assoc., should never have to answer to anyone other than the BOD members directly, in a closed meeting, for anyting they do as a part of their job for UFWDA.  The BOD should be the only ones who deal with day to day issues and only after those they employ have dealt with it first.   

Lets give the plan some time.  Stop trying to force Micromanagement of the Assoc., and push more for the Assoc. to move forward instead of going in circles like it has during this inquisition. 

I know everyone here has an opinion on these issues, but they all have to remember one important thing about that.

Opinions are like that well know body part.........Everyone has one and they all stink.

Jerry Bliley
Member of United Four Wheel Drive Association
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« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2008, 04:23:18 pm »

X2 Jerry!
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